Its a bit odd it needs so many drone mods to do what guns can do without it i would suggest a buff to lock range and reduce the number of turrets.

After the first wave of feedback, we are already talking about ways to make this line look a little stronger. We tend to agree that there's room for some more strength, especially in the case of the Hyperion. We'll keep you updated.

The only thing the hyp ever seemed to do very well, was brawl at close range using a decent dual rep(or sometimes tripple rep) tank. It did it solo SOMETIMES, but usually the lack of utility high and lack of projection/application bonus made that difficult, so more often it was used in small gangs as a heavy brawler that would be supported by some other ships providing extra tackle so that it could focus on tank and gank. I think it was used at least as often for a shield tanked version that just focused on putting out damage, again with some support to provide supplemental tackle.

Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful.

We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank.

As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta.

Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange?

Because you could get half your damage from drones, half from guns.

We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.

There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.

Thanks for the feedback

What... no. Just, no.

-Liang

Because nobody will fit non-bonused large hybrids on it.

6x 350mm Railgun II (Spike L) (116000m Optimum Range)

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 400)
EM Ward Field II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
100MN Afterburner II

3x Drone Damage Amplifier II
2x Tracking Enhancer II (Post Nerf Stats)
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

5x Warden II (112500m Optimum Range)

Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.


I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.

You forgot the part where it doesnt need a mid and remains a flimsy battleship.

Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps.

Its more than that due to heat. And even if its not, 25% is pretty big considering what you have left are slow and destructible.

Heat is not a last ditch thing. It is the single most powerful addition to the fight and should always be used as much as you can all the time. And overheating bonused guns is a big deal because it can often be the difference between winning and losing. Particularly when you drones have been smart bombed or blapped. Yes you can still overheat your unbonused guns but it is not going to push you over that edge particularly against the extra bit of enemy logi. It is a big deal and one of the reasons why the Vexor is such an awesome boat. It simply would not be the same without its bonus guns blasting away, heated. There is simply no equivalent for pure drone damage. NONE. Now if you could overheat your drones....well that would change my tune.

Yep, your right. I stand corrected.

I'd still have to go with the Geddon I think. I mean, that fit seems pretty weak, try ABing into the target to apply dps with no scram or web? Can't really see using that set up though I know that's not your point, and your are correct. And normally when using guns and the kind of tank you have there you use electrons which are further limited by range/fitting issues.

You better bring back my versatile Dominix, or I'll hit your jaw right through the monitor.
Seriously, sentry drones are too strong compared to other drone types. No need to emphasize their strength even futher.

I hate to break it to you but a 50% rate of fire bonus does not mean you are shooting twice as fast, you will be shooting 1.5x as fast.

So you saying that a rate of fire bonus is superior to a damage bonus is incorrect because rate of fire bonus will suck more cap.

Look for an update with the new versions in the next day or two, we are going to spend some time tuning them so that we are less likely to have to make even more changes afterwards.

Then stop moving your Domi and dont forget to scoop them drones before you warp. EHP and reps are irrelevant.
Now please, gosu, explain how can I use heavy drones for... well at least for something?

Look at the Hyperion and Dominix.

Was their any plan to give each race an EWAR Bship like the scorpion? The EWAR of the Caldari Bships (Scop) is pretty much instan pawned in fleet fights as its paper-thin and always primary-ed. Perhaps it would be better for each race to have a partial EWAR bship (but not be completely bonused toward only EWAR).

For example. give the mega or hyperion a mild sensor damp or warp scrambler bonus.

yk

Yes I miss that versatility and I want it back badly.

Player: "Uh but what about using blasters as a close range brawler??"

CCP: "Nope!"

Ok I've seen this too much. Yes, you can ignore any ship's bonus and get it to perform inadequately in other roles you try to shoehorn it into. Can we move on now?

I've probably missed it, but what will the range of the Garde II be with the proposed Domi?

Ahh, thanks (I'm at work right now).

So assuming max EW drone skill...

0 DLA's needed for Garde II's.
1 DLA for Curators
2 DLA for Bouncers
3 DLA for Wardens

No, the biggest problem with the domi is the drones...

-Arazel

Maybe that's because you can't stockpile drones in your dronebay like you can ammo in your cargohold. If you lose 5 heavy/sentry drones in a Dominix... it hurts. You only have enough drone space for 2 extra sets of heavy/sentry drones... but realistically you only carry 1 extra set because you need light and utility drones "just in case." Consciously losing drones left and right as a tactic is not what I consider very smart (nor cheap).

I will start this off with a little lore:
Red Moon Rising Expansion
December 2005
EW Drones, Logistic Drones, and Sentry Drones were introduced.
Max drone control was 15, (+5 from Drones, +5 from Drone Interfacing, and +5 form the ship [Dominix] in this thread)
Over the next few years T2 variations of drones were introduces for all drones, with the exception of EW drones and Fighter/Bombers
Fast forward to December 2007,
Trinity Expansion
Drone Bandwidth was introduced and the max drone control for sub capital ships was reduced 5 drones per ship, skills and ships were modified to compensate for the loss of 10 drones, Drones +1 Drones/level Drone Interfacing +20% Drone Damage and Mining Yield/level Ship Bonuses +10% Drone Damage and HP/level

Now the modifications were effective in keeping the damage the same as before, but nothing else for example you were able to launch 15 medium armor maintaince drone II from the Dominix, @28 HP/drone and a cycle time of 5s you could rep 105HP/s. now you can only rep 35HP/s. This is due to the Drone Interfacing skill only boosting Drone Damage and not the total effectiveness of drones, the same if true for all non combat drones.

As for the ability to destroy drones, when 15 drones were able to be controlled by the Dominix, using hammerhead II, the total HP of all drones was (before resistances) 21225HP. The reduction of drone control did not take this into consideration either, the hull grants +10% HP/level, but that leaves the drones with a total HP of 10615.5HP, merely half of the amount of HP that could be fielded before.

Drone Interfacing should add +20%/level to the total effectiveness of drones, HP, Damage, Mining Yield, Web amount.
The Hull bonus should do the same except 10%/level

This would give drone ships the versatility that they use to have before they were reduced down to 5 drones.

New versions of Hyperion and Megathron posted in the OP - let me know what you guys think.

The new Dominix is going to be a pretty goddamn amazing drone ship, that range and tracking bonus is immensely powerful.

Domi even got more grid

Why hello there Drone Link Augmentor, how are you this fine morning

(I guess an extra 50m drone bay for a touch more utility wouldn't go completely amiss, but I think a lot of people aren't realising just what an unpredictable terror the new domi is.)

Where exactly does fitting a Drone Link Augmentor cost you 1k grid?

I'd love to see this fit in your head where you're going with long range guns and long range sentries at once without sacrifice
(anyway, with just the sentries and three DDA's you're still pushing 700 ish DPS at 45k from napkin calculations with Gardes IIS, 550 ish at over 100km with Warden IIs).

Not sounding particularly bad to hit 550 @ 100 for 3 highs and drones (Although admittedly, Bouncers seem to be more of a sweet spot.) You've still got 3 - 4 utility highs

It needed the grid BEFORE these changes so it could fit a proper tank and 425s. or like a heavy capacitor booster.

It doesn't need the grid as much now because no one would ever fit rails on the sentry drone fleet ship.

Having said that it now means people can use neutrons and a proper tank. So yeah.

Aren't Dominix missing a slot? All other ships have 19, while Dominix only have 18.

May be not +100%, +50% would probably cut it for most cases. I'm actively using sentries right now, and only Wardens have that far of the optimal to require control beyond 80km. But some buf to sensor range would also come in handy.
Say, +10% sensor range and +50% drone control range.

CCP Rise delivers!

Stop being bad and fit c-type adaptives

Yeah, lets not balance a ship around available content... With this argument, we may as well balance every with t1.

Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.

I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.

I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.

the drone control range yes, targeting range... I dont care :P
in terms of the drone bay increase... NO... not 125.... at the max 50 I think

I guess this makes the Domi the "ship of the line"? Hospital RR domi fleets here we come.

They ninja bumped up the Dominix PG to 10k, and reduced the Armageddon PG to 13.5k.

Such as an extra Heavy Energy Nuetralizer on the Domi perhaps?

Edit: Not saying that's great, but at least the Domi is starting to invade the Geddon's space like the Geddon has invaded the Domi's space.

I'm still not sold on the Dominix changes to the bonus. Was there no other options on the table CCP Rise??

The new Domi is inferior to the current one. If there were replacement mods for the mids that the OTL use to occupy then the ship might have some merrit. Right now you have a bonus that really adds nothing for close range and could be useful for sniper fits if it also had a control range bonus.

On the issue with the dominix that a lot of people are having. What is it exactly? Rise has already said he is looking at something to help sentries out (return speed ect). If that happens wouldn't that make the dominix borderline broken?

I totally understand the initiative here, to give current battleships distinctive roles.

However, please dont touch dominix... or tweak the changes a bit.

the turret nerf will make its already-horrible-dps even worse....

Fleets move, you know. Constantly.

Sentry ships that aren't carriers are losing their DPS every time they do an on-grid warp. Not viable to be completely frank. No one fights standing still.

It is as though fleets only reposition 2-3 times a battle, and sit still at each one!

@Grendell, T1 battleships don't get 3 bonuses.

If only you could control sentries at >150km!

If only that wasn't a stupid idea

okay you're literally asking for a bonus that doesn't exist on any other ship save for carriers, where it only applies to fighters

hope this helps!

bonus

You're asking for hull bonus that no other ship has, and it'd be utterly imbalanced with other drone ships. That is dumb. Fit DLAs and make the fitting sacrifices everyone else has to make because, well, you're not a special snowflake. Hope this helps!

We do, but props on finding one ship in the entire game that has such a bonus

It's also a HAC, not a T1 ship, and the bonuses don't apply to sentries

what's it like being wrong twice

Feel free to tell me why any of this matters when we're talking about giving the Dominix an across-the-board control range bonus, which no ship in the game has, period.

Dominix needs a bigger drone bay because, as of now, there is no way to repaid damaged drones in your drone bay without docking or getting rr-s out. Drones are their life and so a bigger drone bay is required.

How many of those mid slots are used for sensor boosters so you can lock the target to tell them to shoot?

This issue would be covered if the Domi were to get + drone bandwidth... or the less controversial + all drone functionality including EWAR and logi drones (which would accomplish a similar goal).

I think CCP Rise does understand that drone capability is about versatility and the iconic drone ship should represent that.

Instead, we are moving from versatility to pigeon-hole role.

Heck I even noticed with the missile slots on the geddon, it makes a better progression ship to training towards a Rattlesnake... barring the Amarr ship training of course.

Forget it IMO. This feature have been removed in the past because of server overload ; nowadays, only cap ships have more than 5 drones, and during cap fights, its a mess (server performances wise) largely because of the swarms of fighter bombers motherships launch.

I suppose, though with an 11 day train on large T2 neuts it's not exactly progression training. More like something you stick in your queue cause it's silly not to.

Large T2 missile systems take a month just to be able to slap it on your ship and another couple of weeks to months depending on how decent you want to be a blapping stuff with them.

I'll just reiterate my stance that the drone tracking and range bonus is not the [main] problem here. It's the Armageddon.

At close range a 'Geddon can do exactly what a Domi can do but better. And sniper sentryboats fits will underperform compared to sniper gunboats since sentry drones are immobile and can be lost.

Yeah would be great for sentries... but if they did, why would we ever use Heavies?

(And yes, some strange people use Heavy drones. In fact, I use them on a regular basis. Have done so for years. And amazingly they work, and actually blow stuff up. And by "stuff" I mean the ships of other players, both competent and incompetent. Which probably means I'm using them wrong, cuz everyone knows Heavy drones suck.)

As for whether or not "returning sentries" would help the Domi's "needs", I reckon that depends on what you determine those "needs" to be.

I'm not sure if it has already been mentioned, but how does the dps of the proposed Domi (gank fit) compare against the dps of a gank fit Vexor?

Having a single ship that can fit the Drone Control Units (via role bonus) and changing the +optimal range bonus to perhaps a range increase for RR would make for some interesting fits. You could RR your sentries or a spider tanked BS fleet again. Sounds like fun gameplay to me.

I just don't see the bonuses on the domi making me want to take it over almost any other drone boat in the game. If its gonna focus solely on drones, it needs to bring more to the table then that.

I understand the concerns between the Domi and the Geddon with similar tank and DPS but the Domi's DPS projection is on another level. If there is a fix for sentries coming then with 150k EHP and being able to swap from brawling to sniping in an instant it will be a serious fleet contender.

I wouldn't even do RR.. I mean I KNOW the PvP fleets would love it, and so would PvE repping their sentries.. but still, that would make the ship a little too unique, being extra drones AND a Logi BS..

How will the new domi be a 'beast' in the (sniper) role as compared to the current stats?
Seriously, how does an in-built OTL, some tank, and some PG turn the domi into a 'beast'?

New Domi is the biggest Falcon nerf to date

So - unless Im wrong ..... 8 turrets bonused one time 37.5% is similar to 6 turrets bonused at 10% per level.

it isnt when you are talking Battleship DPS. Also vindi unless in fleets run 7 turrets and a smartbomb. But im sure you have more experience using a vindicator than I do. So please enlighten me with all your Vindicator knowledge

By your logic maelstrom sucks ball then....

Sure indeed reapir bonus are weak bonus, but imagine a hyperion with resist bonus. Would be the most bonkers ship ever in this game.

So this Domi nerf.. is it also going to cripple the Navy Domi?

Forgive me, sir, you are correct. So this -25% damage reduction buff, will it also be applied to the Navy Domi?

Considering drones never had an issue hitting in the first place what exactly do you call the change? Below 40km a Geddon is a better ship and for sniping turret boats are just better because they can move.

This is a nerf until either:

drone range bonus is included
drone damge bonus increased
number of drones launched is increased

I do, and typically have two Domis in my hangar.

One is usually fit with neutrons. The other has a full rack of assorted neuts. Both very cookie-cutter.

After the nerf, the benefits of lolautos will likely outweigh the benefits of lolneutrons. Especially since the Domi will be less maneuverable.

I like the Domi Changes, but i still feel like its being obsoleted by the Armageddon with its changes, there isnt really any niche that puts the Domi in competition of it, i think that giving it another bonus to increase the number of drones controlled by 1 per leveand increase the bay size to 400m3 and bandwidth to 250MBit and drop the turret hard points to 2 and 1 high slot for a low. So like the following.
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
(+1 Drone Controlled per level)

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 5M, 8L(+1); 2 turrets(-4) , 0 launchers
Fittings: 10000 PWG(+1000), 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 250(+125) / 400(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 465(+45)

What do you guys think?

EDIT: reduce CPU by 10% and increase Power-grid by 25%.

would make more sense to give the geddon more drone bay but limit it to 100mbit or 7.5% drone damage bonus instead of 10%

The Dominix being turned into a pocket carrier would be nice. Instead of the optimal and tracking bonus, change it to a +1 launched drones. Then remove a few high slots and all the turrets to increase it's drone bay to 750 m3.

Presto!

You now have a unique role for it as a battleship that is very different from the other battleships.

You do realize the new Domi received a pretty large nerf since it lost 25% gun damage? People seem to forget to get that weaksauce skill we lost a large chunk of DPS.